AL EP 22: Duane Brown – Pricing For Your Service

Show Notes

Duane has been called an international man of mystery and digital nomad by friends. He has lived in 6 cities across 3 continents and visited 42 countries around the world. Over the years Duane has had the opportunity to work with brands including ASOS, Birdies, Pela Case, Jack Wills, Rose & Rex and FTD/ProFlowers. Him and his team help ecommerce and DTC brands grow through PPC marketing, data, and CRO.

Connect with Duane Brown & Take Some Risk here –
Web: https://www.takesomerisk.com/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/duanebrown/
Twitter: https://twitter.com/duanebrown

Episode Transcript

00:00:00:00 – 00:00:32:22

Hey, everybody, this is Jessie Michael Moore, agency and transformation coach and founder of Mission Control. Creator of leverage for growth and I’m Lucas James, founder of Twist Attire, which scaled from 0 to $200,000 a month with my own agency. We are the host of leverage for growth, podcast agency leverage and Episodes. We know that in order to scale your agency successfully, there are multiple shifts that need to happen within the founders mindsets, skill sets, and leadership styles.

00:00:32:24 – 00:01:03:23

We are on a mission to interview marketing and PR agency owners on their journey to six, seven and eight figures and leverage the lessons from their journey to save you time, energy and money. In order for you to get your agency to the next level. If you find value in these episodes, watch the case study video to learn more about leverage growth and how we successfully scale agencies quickly at Niche in Control Decomp case study at Niche in Control Accommodation.

00:01:03:25 – 00:01:28:15

You are now listening to leverage for growth. Hey everybody. This is Jesse Gilmore, founder of Niche and Control and creator of leverage for growth. Welcome to the agency Leverage Edition. Today I am here with Duane Brown, founder of Take Some Risk, a digital marketing agency that helps e-commerce, direct to consumer and SAS brands create and scale profitable growth through marketing strategy, PPC marketing, and revenue optimization.

00:01:28:17 – 00:01:46:18

Thanks for coming to our show today, Duane. Cool. Thanks for having me. It’s good to be here. Yeah. could you tell us a little bit about the history and background of your agency? Sure. So we we passed six years on December 31st. So this is year seven, which is really cool. I have to tell people I didn’t.

00:01:46:20 – 00:02:03:08

My plan was never to really start an agency, to be honest. I mostly quit my job because I hated it. I was paid well, but I was bored out of my mind. I really just wanted to freelance kind of work for myself, and then, you know, so all of those things were one thing led to another, and you got more and more clients, and you had a fork in the road.

00:02:03:08 – 00:02:22:08

And do you stay on the road? Your idea was kind of like, just do your own thing and stay very small, or do you hire some people? I also took the hire some more people out. and mostly because I to be able to like, go on vacation and know that things are still taken care of. And I’m not like, oh, I go on vacation, I don’t make any money.

00:02:22:11 – 00:02:41:04

You know, to be blunt about it. and, you know, we always chose to be small. Whatever. You know, small defines, you know, small for us to think of somewhere in the, you know, 8 to 10 range. And we’re kind of or five people right now, you know, hopefully six by the end of the year. we may never get to 8 or 10 people.

00:02:41:07 – 00:03:07:05

because I may have to do things I don’t want to do to get there. you know, we try to really optimize for sort of two things, which is like happiness. Usually my happiness, because if I’m happy, the rest of the image be happy. all things being equal and and optimize for profit. over I think a lot of agencies will optimize for revenue or say we’re $1 million a year or $2 million agency, but then their their profit margin is like maybe 10%, you know, if they’re lucky, where our profit margin is well over 20%.

00:03:07:07 – 00:03:23:06

and mostly because we charge more than the average agency. Like there’s a, there’s a cost to the work, much like a cost when you when you hire a mechanic and you’ve got a really good mechanic who we try to spend more money but does a better job. And that’s us. Or, you know, the cheap mechanic who does an okay job, you know, like him, but he’s cheap is why you got him.

00:03:23:08 – 00:03:47:21

But then you get really bad results. You know, that’s like what? Other agencies are over here. and so, you know, we didn’t always just focus on what we focused on. back in 2017, I took out anything to get the lights on because I just had to, like, get money in the door. And over the years, and in a 2018, we, we needed down to, like, what kind of industries to go after we changed our fee model.

00:03:47:24 – 00:04:10:28

and as they say. So the rest is history. Yeah. It seems like, so you and the way beginning were kind of like that hustler doing whatever it takes to, to get money in the door and then, and then you made some adjustments. How did you know, either what industry you wanted to focus on because people that are listening sometimes they’re they are they they’re pretty much ever everything to everybody.

00:04:11:00 – 00:04:27:12

and being able to kind of focus, what were some of the things that helped you be able to go? Yeah, this is the industry. This is what we’re going to do. Basically, my background, my background is mostly e-commerce and, and SAS. so I picked things that, I had a background in, but I also enjoyed working on.

00:04:27:12 – 00:04:48:20

Right. A maybe listen to maybe go after, you know, lawyers or maybe real estate or dentists or something like that. and I, I want to work, and I was just bored out of my mind. And they’re also the most typical clients. They don’t want to pay anything, but then they want VIP service. you know, we also don’t really work on even though we do economy.

00:04:48:21 – 00:05:04:25

Do you see, it once it’s established business, we don’t work on jewelry brands. Jewelry plans online are really hard to do. And if you’re just starting out with your old taken out jewelry brand and zero is pretty much a no go for us, you just wear. And that’s just not, where he sits. so, you know, just a combination.

00:05:04:25 – 00:05:25:16

My background of what I wanted to work on and what I thought I was good at and it worked out, but, to each their own. Really? Yeah. And I know a lot of our listeners, have been trying to figure out like pricing based around value and trying to figure out, you know, how to price what they’re worth as opposed to doing that kind of commodity based pricing.

00:05:25:18 – 00:05:45:03

what is the process that you guys kind of follow to kind of figure out what the value was? you know, I’m a big proponent of actually charging what you’re worth as opposed to doing the commodity thing. So, yeah, I think that’s an interesting question. There’s so somebody on Reddit because it this week you do this week or last week they were like, you know, I work at a big six agency.

00:05:45:03 – 00:06:05:28

What are the holding companies? You know, and I’m freelancing. And I told someone on the spot it was 60. But I’ve written some things I think I should be charging 120. And, and sometimes people, I think, overestimate their ability or think because they did these things in the past, working in-house or working at an agency. When they now work for themselves, they should automatically get the charge.

00:06:05:28 – 00:06:26:25

Whatever that rate is, you know, 120, hundred and 50, $300, I whatever it is. But like working in-house or working at an agency, whether it’s one of the holding companies or independent agency, is very different because you have all these support systems in place and clients are probably paying for that as well. And in some ways, clients are also paying for, you know, kind of like the same.

00:06:26:25 – 00:06:46:27

You don’t get fired for hiring ABM. They’re getting paid in some ways for the comfortability that you’re going to do your job with your job flow from down the street regardless of your background. You’ve not proven you can actually do anything on your own, because working on your own is very different than working in a house, an agency where you have support or working in-house at a brand.

00:06:46:27 – 00:07:15:16

And so I think if you go out on your own to start, here’s what people should charge to have your experience with a freelancing for 2 or 5 years. You really can’t charge that because you have proven you can work on your own. Working on your own is a different ballgame. and so, you know, when we started out, I think like 75 bucks an hour for some hourly clients, I think there was a few in there at 120, and varied, whether they were American or Canadian or British or whatever.

00:07:15:18 – 00:07:32:19

some people came to me because they really want to work with me because they heard I, like, left my job and they’re like, oh, he’s a free agent now. I want to work with him. so really more charged what I thought I could charge, not always what I was worth in my mind, even though I had ten years of experience at that point.

00:07:32:21 – 00:07:53:16

and then, as I was proven, I could work on my own and, you know, actually be a freelancer. I started to charge more. And then towards the end of 2017, I realized, solid hours is the worst way to make money. I don’t care who you are. Worst way to make money. so it’s always hard to just let go of our clients who didn’t want to switch to a different to a different billing structure, which was a little bit hard.

00:07:53:19 – 00:08:12:09

and then by Sabbath, you know, Feb 2018, we fixed on sort of a mixed model. So we charge a monthly strategy fee because we think, you know, there’s two jobs are hardest for your hardest to think about, like what we’re going to do. You’ve got a dozen items on a to do list. Our job is to pick the right items to work on, to move you forward based on your KPIs and goals.

00:08:12:12 – 00:08:32:05

so we charge for that so we can like, think about what we’re working on every month because strategy, like anything else, isn’t a set and forget it type thing. You know, obviously the pandemic being the best example, what you did when the pandemic set off is probably not what you were doing before the pandemic. If you’re a good business, and then the other is just a percent of spend, it’s usually around 10%.

00:08:32:05 – 00:08:50:28

It could be higher. It could be a little bit lower. depends on, like, how much the client spending per month and and, like, what services they want and number of ad accounts and stuff like that. but obviously the average is probably 10% across clients. and then we think it kind of works out really nice. We, we get paid to do what clients usually think the writers to do, which is work on the ad account.

00:08:51:01 – 00:09:10:18

But then we also get paid to do strategy stuff, which isn’t just the ad account. There’s also think about like what happens after somebody clicks on an ad. That post could experience is really important because we could do everything right on the ad account. But if your website is crap, no one’s going to convert. So helping you make recommendations on how to make the website better, I’m making that into a strategy is helping us sort of do the model we have.

00:09:10:20 – 00:09:29:21

I mean, I know I can make a ton more money, like charging flat fees like lots of agencies do, or I can make a ton more money just selling hours. but I just don’t want to do it. Just refuse to. You know? Yeah. That’s cool. it seems as though there’s kind of like this topic of, like, a business by design.

00:09:29:21 – 00:09:50:26

You’re you’re figuring out what do you like, and, you know, what feels right, as opposed to just going with whatever model is there. have you found that like that, that idea of business by design or life by design is kind of something that you’ve embodied, since becoming an entrepreneur? I don’t think I’ve ever given a name, but sure, if that sounds like a good name for it.

00:09:50:28 – 00:10:08:25

I guess it is. I mean, I think people listening, you’ve all probably worked the job you hate. I think everybody has at least once in their life if they’re of any age. And I think trying to, try to run a company, if you’re going to run a company, even if it’s just a company one and there’s just you, should ideally be happy most of the time.

00:10:08:27 – 00:10:23:13

I’m not happy all the time. You know, I tell friends or days I should cry when I laugh because it’s just too brutal to cry. but yeah, I try to. I try to optimize for, like, happiness. Like I said earlier, and, we try to optimize for a profit, and, you know, we track a revenue every month.

00:10:23:13 – 00:10:42:08

We track expenses. And, you know, we’re profitable agency. And I think that’s one thing that maybe makes us different. Other agencies, a lot of agencies might give a discount to a client when the business, because they want to slap a logo on a website, we just wouldn’t do it. I know it’s popular, but whether you’re big or small, giving someone a discount because it just who they are.

00:10:42:11 – 00:10:58:25

It sounds like a really bad business model to me. And if you really want to work with doesn’t really, really want to work with us, you know, you got to pay for the work to get done. And at 17 years doing this job and, you know, 18 this year, I don’t want to sound myself short or sell or team short.

00:10:58:27 – 00:11:21:13

Absolutely. And you’ve given a lot of, good advice, from each one of these questions. But if you were to, to maybe think back to maybe 1 or 2 steps behind you and give some advice to somebody that, maybe just earlier on their journey, you know, what would you tell them to maybe save time, energy or money and on on their road to success?

00:11:21:15 – 00:11:43:21

Yeah. I mean, even if you’re a person of a this could be helpful. But I think the two things I would say is, you know, niche down in some way, whether it’s by, you know, industry or platform or both of those things, like, I know friend who was an agency, in his niches, he only does ecom, but then he only does high end e-commerce.

00:11:43:21 – 00:12:18:05

So things that cost, you know, at least $500,000 a month. so he needs it down by niche, which is kind of cool. and then he also only does CRO, so finding some sort of way to niche down, sometimes it could be scary to do that because you think you’re going to get less clients. But in reality, if you think there’s an abundance mindset, and you only focus on like, let’s say you do do like high and ecom, if all your content you put out, whether it’s on podcast, on conference talks, on the blog, on Twitter, on Reddit is all about like how you help those high ecom brands succeed.

00:12:18:12 – 00:12:37:05

Eventually they’ll come into your view and want to hire you. so being a niche is actually really, really successful, even though it can be really scary at first. I don’t know, even think is is write down all your systems and processes. Anything you do daily, weekly, monthly, even quarterly, you know, should be written down so that even if you don’t want to hire someone else, that’s money.

00:12:37:05 – 00:13:00:24

Ask what your systems are, what you’ve got it written down so easily. Show that which would make you sound more successful than most people who work for themselves, whether they’re an agency or not, because most people don’t have things written down. And then two, I found writing it down. Actually, a lot of you can think about what I wrote down and if it actually made sense and then allowed me to to rejig my actual workflow process so things were more streamlined, more efficient and more effective.

00:13:00:26 – 00:13:19:27

you know, and then if you do want to hire someone, even if it’s just a contractor to help you out because there’s a big project and you go, well, here’s our systems and here’s how it works, you should be able to, like, come on board, really easy to help me on this project. you know, that’s one thing I did in 2018 to hire a friend as a contractor, as my first hire, because I wasn’t sure you know, what was going to happen necessarily.

00:13:20:00 – 00:13:38:20

And then the pandemic happened. so, yeah, niche down and writing down stuff, is the two best things you can do that most people don’t do. I love it. so what is it success for you guys? take risk and and free yourself as well. over the next 1 to 3 years. Like, what are you working on?

00:13:38:20 – 00:14:01:02

What are you excited about? Yeah. You know, goals this year, same as last year, which is basically, continue to work really hard on client retention. I think our retention has been really good overall. But in the last couple years we, we decided let’s, let’s work out how to make it better. and then to just continue to sign clients we want to work with, you know, think beyond those two things.

00:14:01:05 – 00:14:16:11

if I could get out of, like, writing any ad account, that would probably be, like, where my happiness would be. To be honest, I’m 41, and a couple of weeks on, I do love writing campaign still, but I want to run, like, less campaigns, and spend more time trying to, like, work on the business more than I already do.

00:14:16:11 – 00:14:34:07

I think that would be, ultimate success. And so part of that this year is just training the people we have, to take some of the stuff that I have on my plate right now. Awesome. And so what’s the best way for people to get in touch with you? or do you have any offers for them that they could take advantage of.

00:14:34:10 – 00:14:50:12

Yeah. So I mean I spend a lot of time on LinkedIn. So I mean, you can shoot me a message on LinkedIn if you want. It’s just the way brand is my hero. obviously there’s a website. Take some risks. and then beyond that, we’ve got a new thing we put out, a few months ago called the DTC Brand Index.

00:14:50:12 – 00:15:09:06

So it’s about 1300 different brands based in North America, Europe, a bit of Africa, a bit of Australia. they’re all direct consumer. and it’s great because we’ve got everything from a link to the website, a link to their Facebook ad, a library, links to both their TikTok and IG organic profiles. We have links to their YouTube.

00:15:09:06 – 00:15:27:22

And so if you want to find out, what brands are doing across about 37 different categories, either we’ve got a list of competitors and see like what they’re doing on TikTok or Instagram or YouTube or Facebook. we use it on a weekly basis, really, to understand like what’s going on when we talk to prospects, only work with clients on stuff.

00:15:27:25 – 00:15:47:03

especially if clients are having a video is a great way to not have to like doing a search all the time to find out, like what brands or what categories. Very cool. and I have the URL. I’ll put it into the show notes for anybody that’s listening. thank you so much, Duane, for, sharing some insights and kind of your story with our audience.

00:15:47:06 – 00:15:51:07

Yeah, thanks for having appreciate it.

00:15:51:10 – 00:16:14:24

Agency owners, if you want to transform your agency to sustain and grow without your direct involvement, where you can stop working in the business and switch to working on the business where you can regain control of your time, delegate effectively, get paid what you’re worth, and have your team run the day to day. Go to Niche in control.com/case study right now to learn more about leverage for growth.

00:16:14:26 – 00:16:51:09

You can book a free strategy session with us to look at your systems, understand what needs to be done in order for you to scale and get a free strategic plan for the next year. To live the life of entrepreneurship that you’ve always dreamed about. Go to niche in control.com/case study that is niche in control.com/case. Now you.

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