S3 / AL EP 68: Brett Linnenkohl – How Agencies Use Systems to Break Through Growth Ceilings

Show Notes

Brett Linnenkohl is a fractional COO and operations consultant who gets founders free in 90 day sprints by turning people driven companies into systems driven companies.

📩 Want to work with Brett? Visit Evergreen Strategic Systems: https://evergreenstrategicsystems.com/
🤝 Connect with Brett on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=61553751994003

Episode Transcript

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Everybody has a Jesse Gilmore agency transformation coach and founder of Niche and Control, author of the Agency Owners Guide to Freedom and the creator of leverage for growth. I’m the host of the leverage for growth podcast, and I know that in order for you to scale your agency successfully, there are multiple shifts that need to happen within your mindset, skill set, and leadership style.

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I am on a mission to interview marketing and PR agency owners on their journey to six, seven and eight figures and leverage the lessons from their journey to save you time, energy, and money to get your agency to the next level. If you find value in these episodes, watch the case study video to learn more about leverage for growth and how we successfully scale agencies at niche and control e-commerce assets that is niche in control.

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Decomp case study.

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You’re now listening to leverage for growth. Hey, everybody, this is Jesse Gilmore, founder of Niching control and creator of leverage for growth. Welcome to the agency. Leverage Edition. Today, I am here with Brett Linen, Comm and the founder of Evergreen Strategic Systems, a done for you systems agency helping agency teams to build and implement operational systems that capture that tribal knowledge so the team can run the day to day.

00;01;27;09 – 00;01;46;10

Thanks for coming to our show today, Brett. Yeah. Thank you. Jesse. And like, as we get started, I just want to say to you, thanks for having me on a and also how we met. Jess, thanks for your incredible wisdom and advice. We’ve known each other very shortly, but, already, like, you, made an impact on my life, so,

00;01;46;12 – 00;02;04;11

Yeah, thanks for that. And glad to be. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And in our first call, we talked a little bit about your history leading up to the agency. And so can you tell us a little bit about the history and background of your agency? Yeah. So in my 20s, I was, always gung ho about being an entrepreneur.

00;02;04;14 – 00;02;21;11

Right. And, the traditional life path, it just didn’t really appeal to me. So, right after college, I was a baseball player, and I started just doing some lessons. During grad school, I happened to go to Hopkins. I did, counseling, and I thought that was going to be my path to work with kids. I’m good with them.

00;02;21;14 – 00;02;35;28

And I saw a practice, and I was like, well, I played ball. Let me go play with them. One thing led to another. I started doing these camps, and I would rent out facilities, and I had an email list, so I would, you know, just fill them up. And it turned to this year round thing. So it’s a really cool little baseball business.

00;02;36;01 – 00;02;52;21

And rent it for about nine years. Had a lot of success with it. But I hit a ceiling that was one side of it. I only had so much location, you know, that I can actually grow in, in person there. And two, Covid happened, so no one wanted to send their kids to camps. And, I got pretty slammed there.

00;02;52;21 – 00;03;10;09

It was like spring. Obviously, when Covid hit, our summer was 70% of our revenue. And yeah, so a lot of it was crazy. So I was like, all right, screw this. I’m out. Moved over to where we’re at now in Charlotte and, I happened to have a buddy. He was a digital, agency owner. He’s brilliant.

00;03;10;09 – 00;03;28;10

He’s a genius. You should probably have him on here, too. Really good guy. And as much as he could grow, he was insane with his marketing. But he’d always get hung up with, wanting to do new stuff and projects. He would put on a new project, his team, and everything would fall apart on the backend. The systems would just drop, and he just kept complaining about it.

00;03;28;10 – 00;03;44;19

So I was like, well, hey, man, I’m free. Let me pop in. And side note, that was really my superpower. When I grew the baseball business, I had it down to one hour a week. I had, the key team that would come in. We have one meeting, and then I would to play them and everything else would run.

00;03;44;22 – 00;03;59;10

When I say one hour, obviously I was doing more, but it was stuff I wanted to do. So long and short hopped in his company within three months. We had systemize it, send him on vacation. The business was still running, and in another three months when he got back, right, we were. We right on pace. Doubled his business.

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After that, he referred me. That referred me long and short. That’s kind of how I got in the agency world, and I’ve been doing that ever since. So as a fractional CEO, yeah. So that’s kind of my story. That’s how I got here. Awesome, awesome. And, it’s kind of funny how you focus on kind of like, your superpower.

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And then people tell other people and then kind of snowballs, what what percentage of your business is agency owners right now? Yeah, I would say 80, 85% have been agencies. It is just like they’re in the networks. They know you know each other. So they hand you off and then you get good at that. One thing. So yeah.

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Agencies I’ve gotten my head pretty good. I’ve like you always start with onboarding. So the number of onboarding that we’ve overhauled for agencies, it’s like I could do my sleep. But but yeah, always interesting in every business needs systems. So, so yeah, it’s been fun journey. A lot of agencies I’ve worked with, I’ll say that.

00;04;52;27 – 00;05;11;24

Yeah, yeah. Cool. And, as you work with agencies, let’s kind of walk you, walk through a bit more about some of the problems that you talked about. That your friend that you had done the agency, systems for and that they kind of like they couldn’t get away from, the operations about things breaking.

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What are some of the things that you find when you talk with agencies that are kind of like the biggest pain problems that kind of gravitate towards operational systems being the thing. Yeah. No. Great question. And I know you know this. So reading your book and it was just funny because our convo, you’re like, Brett, that’s it sounds like you’re early.

00;05;29;29 – 00;05;48;05

Me and that was give me such good wisdom advice. Of course I come to page. I think it was at least in the version I had, it was like page seven of you talk about flowcharts and processes and I’m like, oh no, he really means it. And so, yeah, when I go to businesses, I think of myself as a surgeon.

00;05;48;07 – 00;06;06;04

You have to really understand the layout. They’re all the same, but they’re all so different than nomenclature. The people, the systems that have set up the background, the, the, the culture units. So you really have to understand everything you got to ask questions. And then we use those right, to make a map and know where we got to make the cuts.

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And I would really I say that because the problems that I see in agencies, they’re down to the hidden bottlenecks, right? They’re the things that they’re hidden, like the owner, they can’t see him. Or if they know about them, it goes deeper than what they know. That’s why laying it out visually, you know, having them see it and see like this doesn’t connect to that.

00;06;24;11 – 00;06;43;14

That’s one part of it. But especially the team, right? The team, they know things, but they don’t necessarily want to tell you. Right. As the owner, their job depends on making sure things run. So yeah, I think that’s a big part of it. In The Hidden bottlenecks, I would say three things out of 20, the top three things that I find the hidden bottleneck.

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One is the owner. Everything’s in their head or majority is in their head. And the little gaps make it so the team can’t take over. So they’re always stuck. Number two, I would say it’s the tribal knowledge of the team. Tribal in the sense of self-preservation. Tribal in the sense of telephone by the campfire. Right. And trauma.

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And that can really cause problems, when someone else has a little piece of info or they’re not sharing, that that’s two. Yeah. And then three is just aligning to an actual process. So many people are winging it. And so by laying those things out and aligning the team to say, this is it, right? Is this a decision?

00;07;19;11 – 00;07;46;05

No. I think that like, you got to get it towards type. And I’m already stepping into solutions. Right. But but I think those are the three biggest bottlenecks that typically myself are starting with. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And a lot of times, at least in my experience, and maybe you’re, you’re in the same boat, but a lot of times marketing agency owners, they kind of wait, and delay on operational systems, just like the thing that they avoid like the plague.

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And then something random, really big happens that they’re like, oh, my gosh, I really need it. And, I know, early kind of warning signs is something that I usually talk about in podcasts where we’re trying to get like, hey, before it actually becomes a big issue, here’s a couple things. Is there any kind of like, early warning signs that you kind of want to, like, bring to the audience?

00;08;11;05 – 00;08;30;01

No, it’s a great point. Well, it’s hard because, like, the stuff that you and I are good at in that sense. Right? And again, like, Jesse, you’re good at everything. When I read your book and the gross systems you do, it’s like, oh, yeah, he’s been doing this a while. Yeah. But like from my side, it’s, I don’t know, the hidden part.

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It’s like the when you see a building, you see the outside of it. It’s it’s pretty building, but you don’t see the metal rafters that have to be there. And a lot of people or maybe, maybe young, they might say, well, the building just there, there’s some cement around it. You know, but but really, you have to like they’re necessary things.

00;08;49;06 – 00;09;05;26

So, early warning signs. Sure. Like, I don’t know, but like you said, it’s so funny because people can just overlook it. You get to six figures and you’re like, well, we’ll deal with that when we get to seven. Right now, let’s focus. Okay, you get to seven. We’ll deal that when we get to eight.

00;09;05;28 – 00;09;25;06

But they’re towing this incredibly heavy boulder and not even realizing. Right. They’re walking in water. They could have gotten there faster. They could have been on more vacations because of it. Their team could have taken more. And eventually it catches up to you. Right. So I think it comes down to the decision of the agency owner. Do you want to make it easy or you want to make it hard?

00;09;25;08 – 00;09;46;15

I think that’s one part of the decision. Yeah. Yeah. Just to riff on that a little bit, I think there is a transition point when you are just starting up an agency to get to six figures, you’re kind of just doing whatever is possible, whenever possible to get through the proof of concept for whatever possible to figure out what those core services are.

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And the journey between 6 and 7 is actually a journey of the agency owner switching, switching roles from being a subject matter expert to more of a trainer, to all of a sudden a manager to more of a leader. And it’s like and the only way of making that transition is actually through systems. And I think one of the things that I find, at least in the market and, you might find this as well, is that a lot of times agency owners actually have their strategy backwards, or they’re so focused around generating new clients as opposed to just retaining the good that the ones that they have.

00;10;20;27 – 00;10;40;17

And instead of, focusing on kind of like the internal structure, like the, the pole in the wall, like you were talking about a second ago, they’re so focused around like the outside and what it looks like, you know. So, I think yeah, the strategy is, is backwards. Yeah, I think so. And ultimately I think it all catches up no matter what.

00;10;40;18 – 00;11;12;29

Right. Because if you look at a timeline of someone, eventually it’s going to catch up with you. Right? If you focus on just acquisition, you’re going to lose, you know, people, it’s going to drop off, and it’s gonna be a lot harder of a ride. So I totally agree. Yeah. Totally agree. Yeah, I know this is supposed to be about your journey as well, but I know, I know the the operational systems is actually in such a key part of the journey that, a lot of agency owners are on, and, and people that are listening right now are most likely going, do I have those early warning signs?

00;11;12;29 – 00;11;46;15

And do I need to focus on the operational systems or chasing new clients? And and I think that it is really just important to have it where fulfillment is good. Systemize as much as possible, figure out what’s working, what’s not working, be able to get help is another big thing. And I think, we have similarities in certain ways, but I would say I serve, in a different way, where if someone is not able to kind of like be taught how to fish and then build the systems, but they need somebody that can kind of implement those, that’s where you step in.

00;11;46;21 – 00;12;12;16

And I think, that’s really important, you know. Yeah. Well, and that is something coming in and preparing of like, well what is the difference. And how is it, you know, working together. And I do think I think your program, I’ve seen a lot of programs like yours, undoubtedly with the info you put out, it’s one of the best at taking the strategy and showing someone holistically in an agency how to get from here to here smoothly, you know, and and definitively right.

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And getting the results, you’ve helped so many people for mine. I feel like it’s funny, the combo you brought up because those that skip that step, the ones that are really good marketers, love the sales side. And they just like what, we’re just going to skip the bones and we’ll figure it out. And it’s caught up to them.

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That’s the ones I do really well with. Right? I like to put them in the the lazy genius category. Right. The creative genius, they’re trying to skip levels, but so, so yeah, that’s where I come in. And and do it for you. Right. Lay those bones for you. Make it really clear. So, so, yeah, I think that’s kind of where they both synergize.

00;12;46;25 – 00;13;16;29

Is me catching them up so you can take them. Take them on and above. Yeah. And if someone’s listening to this, I’m going back to the audience and let’s just say and they’re, they’re not looking for support, but they at least need some type of key action things that they could do. They could take this podcast and go, okay, if I were to do it myself without any help, what are maybe like three main things I could, I could do today or this week, either with myself or my team to help me build those operational systems.

00;13;16;29 – 00;13;35;16

What are some of the things that kind of come to mind for you? Yeah, yeah, for me, it’s very, very clear. So so it goes back kind of to, to my main philosophy. Right. And operations. So end goal is get you out, right. Get the business owner out to use their superpower to to strategize and scale and grow.

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So, how you do that is making sure your processes are very clear. They’re binary, they’re objective. And then you have a team and everyone has a role to execute those processes, and that’s how you align. So, I’m a big proponent in this way, something that I think is missing, from a lot of owners in the agency world.

00;13;53;02 – 00;14;14;05

One is the team meeting structures. There’s an agenda. And again, you lay it out so well. So I think that’s one. But making sure you’re structured, there shouldn’t be a meeting where there’s, a lot of downtime. Right. Yes. So that’s one. Two is one that’s really close to my heart. A general, an engineer, a quarterback.

00;14;14;05 – 00;14;30;12

What do they all have in common? They have a visual. They have some kind of playbook that they align their team around and they use it. They practice it so everyone knows what they’re doing, what the central place is. I think we’re missing that in the agency world. That’s been my the main tool, of solving problems that I use because everyone can see it, they can understand it.

00;14;30;12 – 00;14;47;21

You get that mental check mark. So I think that’s a big one using flowcharts again, that you lay out in your book, that we have our own process doing. I just don’t think you can take it away. So that’s that’s too little extra effort. Long way of help. And then. Yeah, number three could go a lot of different ways.

00;14;47;21 – 00;15;05;04

I think at that point it’s just focusing back on sales. Yeah I think it’s easy to get in the ops. I would just say go back in sales and apply it that way too. Yeah. Don’t do you find that to just see people when they do get the operations bug and they focus on it, then they’d like throw out, throw the sales out the window.

00;15;05;04 – 00;15;28;27

I find that that happens more often than not. Yeah, I think problems. Yeah. Yeah. What’s really interesting, especially with operational systems, is well, first off, let me, let me go back to your three, talks. You talked about the meeting structure. Super important. I think, a lot of times that that agency owners kind of get stuck on is they think that, every meeting is a waste of time.

00;15;28;29 – 00;15;51;07

And so they minimize meetings as much as humanly possible. And if you actually study, the CEOs of great companies, you’ll actually realize that all they’re doing is just trying to make sure that they communicate effectively and the information doesn’t go into silos. So, the former CEO of, LinkedIn, for example, they had every single day, dedicated to a certain theme.

00;15;51;10 – 00;16;11;23

And if someone came to, I think his name was John or, my butcher it. Anyway, they’re the LinkedIn guy, and he, like on Mondays is about leadership. So he’s talking all about leadership, leadership and teams leadership and so forth. If someone came to him with a question as outside of his theme, he would just be like, talk to me on Wednesday.

00;16;11;26 – 00;16;35;04

And what he was doing was he was his bucketing all these very specific themes, and he would just dominate them. Same exact thing. When it comes to like meeting structures, you want to have the agenda, you want to have a purpose with them, and you want to make sure that achieves that purpose. And when it actually does that meeting structure that you’re talking about, it minimizes ad hoc meetings, which minimizes task switching or actually increases the actual output.

00;16;35;06 – 00;16;53;26

And so yeah, and saves you more time. That is the ironic part. You’re right. It’s like if you actually do the meetings upfront, it actually saves you time later because you’re not getting all these little fires. They have all they need. So 100%. And one of my one of my favorite words in operational systems is the reduction of rework.

00;16;53;28 – 00;17;10;29

Like once I figured out what rework was or you just you have to keep on doing the same thing because you did it wrong the first time and you’re like, crap. Like, you know, I find that a lot, is is, you know, one of the benefits of building a system to truth. Yeah. Man. Yeah, it really drives me, man.

00;17;10;29 – 00;17;29;26

That kind of stuff. How can we save time? Right? A lot of times, I wish my superpower was making a lot of money. Like a lot of you watching the visionary type, like, truly, that’s. That would be nice. But, yeah, this stuff just drives me, man. It’s just. It’s crazy. I. Yeah. And then the the second one you talked about was the visual component.

00;17;29;26 – 00;17;47;21

I think that’s really important because I think one of the other things that agency owners do wrong is they’ll run to SOPs. They hear all the time, they’re like, oh, I got to build recipes. And when we were talking in the last call, you were like, you know, it’s like building the branches without understand the tree or I don’t know how you phrase it, but,

00;17;47;23 – 00;18;10;08

Oh, yeah. Well, no, that one’s actually really close to my heart. Yeah. It’s, Yeah. SOPs to me is like data. It’s like solving problems with algebra, and that can get really long. And those big whiteboards with a lot of numbers. But what was this? It was it. I can’t remember the mathematician that made the x y axis, but they figured, right, you can have an equation and plug numbers in and see it in shapes and see it in the world, and then you can easily.

00;18;10;15 – 00;18;36;09

And that’s solving with geometry. That’s what that is. It’s a whole new way to solve problems and see problems you didn’t know you even had. That’s why I love it. Yeah. Thanks for reminding me that, that’s one of my favorites. Yeah, yeah, I think, one of the actionable things I would suggest anybody that is listening to this conversation and wants to take something away from it, is being able to actually focus on that visual component first before going into the SOPs is really important.

00;18;36;12 – 00;18;55;17

Part of that is because if you go after the SOPs without understanding the workflow, a lot of times you’re actually creating your own rework because you’re going, oh crap, I didn’t know a beginning and an end to whatever I’m creating. And then, that’s why people will spend months, years building operational systems when in actuality you just, you know, do it right the first time.

00;18;55;20 – 00;19;14;00

So building that work just has to stop there, though, and just say, truly, man, there’s no one else who understand. Like when I read that in your book, I was like, dang. Like, he really like, no one else talks about this and has that perspective. So yeah. Oh, it’s just cool. Like you, anyone watching at home?

00;19;14;07 – 00;19;48;04

Thanks for saying on me. But like Jesse. Well, like, again. Yeah, I think I think the biggest thing that I’ve realized, and that goes really hand in hand, is that the systems are, inevitable. You have to create them at some point, whether you’re you’re doing it yourself. You’re reading all the books, using ChatGPT to figure out what the hell you’re doing, or I’m doing research or whatever, or you find somebody that you’re like, you could be given kind of a roadmap and different guides, and you just follow that and then you get feedback on that.

00;19;48;06 – 00;20;07;03

That could be a thing or if you get to a place where you’re just like, dude, this is totally not me, and I need, I need somebody to help me with this thing. Then they go to you and you just build it. And then in 90 days they have the operational systems. It is totally worth it. Because no matter what, there’s always a need for operational systems to be, solidified.

00;20;07;05 – 00;20;31;07

And when my clients get to a place or they’re on the other side of operational systems, they’re like, oh, sweet, I don’t have to worry about all that other crap that I was dealing with before, and now I can focus on growth. And that’s where a lot of our case studies come from. So, yeah, I think people avoid it and they realize they have to realize, I think this is the biggest kind of like key lesson for anybody that’s listening is that operational systems are inevitable to build.

00;20;31;09 – 00;20;50;11

You can’t get around it. You can’t avoid it unless you want to stay really, really, really small. And yeah, so I yeah, I get going. I’m on a rant for a long time, but no, it’s it’s true. And you know, it comes back to me is the question you did ask that I don’t think I addressed head on, but I do think is critical for any listener that like this is speaking to you.

00;20;50;14 – 00;21;06;15

You asked, what are the signs, right? What do they feel? And I jump over that question because I hear it so much. To me, it’s like Trivium, you know? So, you know, when you’re in a place and you know, you’re like, well, everyone knows that. But this is when you’re feeling antsy, you can’t sleep. You wake up in the middle of the night.

00;21;06;15 – 00;21;26;00

That’s what the systems are, right? Did I forget this to, like, leaving the garage door open? The home alone type thinking. But in your business. And, it’s also like when you think you have, like, I’ve explained this to my team. Why aren’t they doing it? That’s you. That’s the operations. That’s the systems. It’s not clear what they’re following.

00;21;26;02 – 00;21;44;18

I don’t know any other things you can think of off the top of your head to that are signs. Yeah. When you hire somebody and you have to do a job shadowing. Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, like, the only way I gotta train this person is if they’re looking over my shoulder. I’m like, what are you talking about?

00;21;44;20 – 00;22;15;17

And then they’re like, oh, I got a rush to hire. Okay. Have you built systems yet? What what do you mean by systems? Well, what kind of environment are they coming into? Oh, well, I’ll just teach them, like, what the hell are you doing? You build the systems first, then you hire. And there’s so many different reasons and why you do that, and but, I think a lot of times people hear the saying hire when it hurts, which is totally true, but you only hire when it hurts, when you’ve already tried to build the systems, build the processes and so forth.

00;22;15;17 – 00;22;36;11

And, I think just a lot of people rush to I need a body, when in actuality you’re just going to spend a crap ton of time either micromanaging them, training them for too long, and so forth. And so I think, just having things in the right order makes all the difference. That kills me, too, is they’ll do exactly as you said.

00;22;36;11 – 00;22;56;14

They’ll shadow them. And guess what happens half the time? Then that person leaves in three months. All that work you’ve done is for not that that is the worst part of that situation. And the amount of times I’ve. Yeah, it’s maddening. And that’s the that’s brutal. But, anyway, I’m sure we could go all day. Yeah, yeah. Horror stories.

00;22;56;17 – 00;23;12;02

So if you feel in any of those, like, legitimately, there is a way out, you don’t have to suffer through it all. It’s not part of business. Like I even thought this early on. Oh, it’s just part of the grind, and I’m just going to push through it. You really don’t have to. You really don’t.

00;23;12;02 – 00;23;35;29

There. So, Yeah. Anyway, off our pulpits, right? Yeah. Well, anybody that’s listening right now, you know, if you are experiencing anything that we’ve talked about so far and you’re looking for some type of support, you know, Brad, if they if they’re looking for systems implementation, what’s the best way of getting in touch with you or, you know, how do they move forward?

00;23;36;02 – 00;23;56;07

Yeah. So my website, Evergreen Strategic systems.com, you can check it out. I work best with again that lazy genius or creative genius type people that just love the creative. And you’re like, I don’t want any part. I want the speedrun. I want the Mario flute. Right? To just skip ahead. We do a 90 day sprints. Usually doesn’t take 90 days, 90 day sprints.

00;23;56;07 – 00;24;10;01

It’s very paced. The way I explain to doing this stuff, it’s like, you know, you’re driving on a highway, you’re trying to change a tire, right? So you can’t just be like, okay, we’re going to get done in a week. It doesn’t work like that. You got to work out the problems. And but yeah, that’s how we attack it.

00;24;10;01 – 00;24;24;13

So if you’re home and you’re like, okay, just got to knock this out in quarter, reach out. And for being on here, just mention you were on the show, you know, and I usually have a couple spots that I can work with people depending on what level they’re at. So. So can definitely, work with you and make it reasonable.

00;24;24;16 – 00;24;40;25

And I would ping back Jesse if I, if anyone comes on and I get them set, they’ll be at chapter against page 70 or page 80 in your book, and you’ll be ready to grow. And we’ll turn right back into, Yeah, your system. And, as long as they do a case study, I think that has to be the deal, right?

00;24;41;00 – 00;25;00;15

Yeah. So, yeah, I love those case studies. Yeah, yeah. Well, they work, right? Yeah. Yeah. Cool. Well, I’ll answer you guys. And for anybody that wants to connect with Brett, I’ll leave the links to you. Connect with him in the show notes. And, Brett, I just want to thank you so much for being on the show today.

00;25;00;18 – 00;25;18;08

Yeah. Truly, Jesse again. And you don’t know, I think how much you change other people’s lives. But again, I can Testament I’ve known you now for at least 90 total minutes of our lives and just the things you say. Very insightful. So, yeah, I really appreciate, man. Thanks for having me on. And hope that I got to pay it back to somebody.

00;25;18;11 – 00;25;36;11

Yeah, absolutely. Agency owners, if you want to transform your agency to sustain and grow without your direct involvement, where you can stop working in the business and start working on the business, where you can free up your time, delegate work more effectively, price and position your services to finally get paid for what you’re worth, and have the team run the day to day.

00;25;36;11 – 00;25;54;17

Go to niche and control.com/case study now to learn more about leverage for growth, and also to book a free strategy session with us. We’ll look at your systems, determine exactly what you need to do in order for you to scale this year, and to create a strategic plan so that you can live the life of entrepreneurship you’ve always dreamed about.

00;25;54;20 – 00;26;10;09

Go to niche incontrol.com/case study. Now.